44 votes

Topic deleted by author

32 comments

  1. [7]
    dblohm7
    Link
    I was fortunate enough to have kept my job. As I did last time, if anybody is hiring and would be interested in connecting with laid-off Mozillians, I am happy to circulate your available...

    I was fortunate enough to have kept my job.

    As I did last time, if anybody is hiring and would be interested in connecting with laid-off Mozillians, I am happy to circulate your available positions and contact information.

    34 votes
    1. [2]
      unknown user
      Link Parent
      There's a website called Mozilla Lifeboat for laid-off developers, offering jobs at tech companies. Companies may add themselves to the list. On the site, there's also a spreadsheet of former...

      There's a website called Mozilla Lifeboat for laid-off developers, offering jobs at tech companies. Companies may add themselves to the list.

      On the site, there's also a spreadsheet of former Mozilla devs looking for jobs, with a list of skills and requirements for the position.

      9 votes
    2. skullkid2424
      Link Parent
      I don't have anything specific, but I know Red Hat is hiring and the open source values of Mozilla will almost certainly mesh with Red Hat's ideals. I'll note that while Red Hat was purchased by...

      I don't have anything specific, but I know Red Hat is hiring and the open source values of Mozilla will almost certainly mesh with Red Hat's ideals. I'll note that while Red Hat was purchased by IBM, they maintain a distinct hiring pipeline.

      The jobs page is something that I imagine most folks could find easily enough, but like I said, I don't have any insight into specific postings.

      7 votes
    3. [3]
      soks_n_sandals
      Link Parent
      Do you know what sort of skills those that were laid off may have?

      Do you know what sort of skills those that were laid off may have?

      2 votes
      1. [2]
        dblohm7
        (edited )
        Link Parent
        As you can imagine, out of sensitivity for the people being laid off, the company isn't telling us who has or has not lost their jobs; that information is slowly trickling out as those affected...

        As you can imagine, out of sensitivity for the people being laid off, the company isn't telling us who has or has not lost their jobs; that information is slowly trickling out as those affected disclose their status voluntarily.

        Not enough people have reported their status yet for me to be comfortable being too specific (I gotta respect their privacy, after all), but I can give some high-level skills:

        • Python
        • C++
        • Rust
        • Areas of expertise: Product, Release Engineering, R&D (basically the entire Servo team), AR/VR, Developer tools
        • We also let go a number of engineering managers at various levels, from front-line all the way up to VP

        EDIT: This is being continuously updated as more information becomes available

        15 votes
        1. soks_n_sandals
          Link Parent
          This is what I was looking for, thanks! I wasn't sure how to phrase the question.

          This is what I was looking for, thanks! I wasn't sure how to phrase the question.

          2 votes
  2. [12]
    Deimos
    Link
    Just read through the internal message that was linked (PDF) and wanted to highlight this section: It's understandable, because developers are a small portion of browser users overall, but still...

    Just read through the internal message that was linked (PDF) and wanted to highlight this section:

    Focusing Firefox On Users
    In order to refocus the Firefox organization on core browser growth through differentiated user experiences, we are reducing investment in some areas such as developer tools, internal tooling, and platform feature development, and transitioning adjacent security/privacy products to our New Products and Operations team.

    It's understandable, because developers are a small portion of browser users overall, but still disappointing that they're going to be explicitly de-prioritizing developer tools in the future. Firefox has added lots of features that have made it much easier for me to do webdev work through it, and I hope they don't fall behind so much that I might have to consider switching browsers because of superior dev tools elsewhere.

    23 votes
    1. [6]
      DrStone
      Link Parent
      And the more this happens, the more primary development will be done in Chrome with FF as an afterthought, and the more general people will be tempted to switch to Chrome where their favorite...

      developers are a small portion of browser users overall, [...] consider switching browsers because of superior dev tools elsewhere.

      And the more this happens, the more primary development will be done in Chrome with FF as an afterthought, and the more general people will be tempted to switch to Chrome where their favorite sites work better.

      17 votes
      1. [5]
        teaearlgraycold
        Link Parent
        Related to this, has anyone else noted that a lot of websites aren't working very well with Firefox? I've noticed a significant increase of broken sites in the last year, including some very big ones.

        Related to this, has anyone else noted that a lot of websites aren't working very well with Firefox? I've noticed a significant increase of broken sites in the last year, including some very big ones.

        6 votes
        1. [4]
          dblohm7
          Link Parent
          I noticed this picking up around 2017. It seemed to me like that’s when Firefox unfortunately began to cross over into “don’t care” territory with many web devs.

          I noticed this picking up around 2017. It seemed to me like that’s when Firefox unfortunately began to cross over into “don’t care” territory with many web devs.

          10 votes
          1. [3]
            viridian
            Link Parent
            I'm sure you've read this before, but in the case of Google developers, it may often be even worse than mere negligence:...

            I'm sure you've read this before, but in the case of Google developers, it may often be even worse than mere negligence: https://www.zdnet.com/article/former-mozilla-exec-google-has-sabotaged-firefox-for-years/

            10 votes
            1. [2]
              dblohm7
              (edited )
              Link Parent
              Yes, this is a thing. My colleague Mike Hoye wrote an excellent piece about Google that I believe is bang-on. To quote here (emphasis mine): EDIT: (Added TL;DR) TL;DR: Google as a company has...
              • Exemplary

              Yes, this is a thing. My colleague Mike Hoye wrote an excellent piece about Google that I believe is bang-on. To quote here (emphasis mine):

              The AMP people are rebranding their “AMP Stories” as “web stories“, raising that bland flag to the strained smiles of their publisher client-states, so it’s about time for me to click “post” on this. I was ranting about AMP a few weeks ago, partly because it’s a minor fraud being carried out at the expense of open standards and the common good, but mostly because of what an incredible social engineering exercise it’s been inside the big G.

              The most remarkable thing about this machine – specifically, this corner of the massive Google monitor-and-monetize engine – how well they’ve broken up every part of the process internally at Google. The team working on AMP is making web pages lighter-weight and faster to load, and that sure seems like a net good in the world. Elsewhere, the search team has built out a preference for surfacing faster-loading and lighter-weight web pages to mobile users, which I’m sure was a decision with some sort of empirical basis and on its face seems like a good idea too. That a site would show up better in search results because it’s snappier or more responsive seems reasonable. And finally Google sells ads and shares ad revenue and that keeps a lot of sites alive these days, and I guess that’s good as well.

              But when you put all the parts of that machine together under one P&L-statement roof suddenly you’re looking at a thinly veiled extortion scheme; as a publisher you either use AMP or your ad revenue goes away. Google could have approached the “be better on mobile” problem, search optimization and revenue sharing any number of ways, obviously, but the one they’ve chosen and built out is the one that guarantees that either you let them middleman all of your traffic or they cut off your oxygen.

              EDIT: (Added TL;DR)

              TL;DR: Google as a company has managed to structure itself so that individual Googlers all believe that they are doing something that is altruistic and good for humanity, but when the company puts the pieces together, they end up with evil things.

              22 votes
              1. skybrian
                Link Parent
                Just as minor technical caveat, I think this this can fairly be called a threat, but not extortion. "Extortion" is a threat of violence used to get other people to pay you, and there doesn't seem...

                Just as minor technical caveat, I think this this can fairly be called a threat, but not extortion. "Extortion" is a threat of violence used to get other people to pay you, and there doesn't seem to be any violence and that's not how the money is flowing. Buyers of advertising (including Google, as a proxy for some of them) are essentially paying for content in the format that Google wants.

                Google is able to route traffic and money in this way because advertisers don't have any strong opinions about what format a web page is in, as long as the web page gets traffic and they get clicks.

                It's hard for other formats to compete with it, though.

                On the other hand, threatening to cut off web traffic (and actually doing it) can be used in ways that are relatively uncontroversial, like the Safe Browsing Initiative. This is a strong incentive for web publishers to get malware removed from their site, and nobody really objects. So I'm not sure if it's the means or the ends being objected to here?

                Structurally, rich people or organizations that have a lot of money (or just control the spending of money) have a lot of power. This can be used for good purposes and bad, but even when it's good, it's uncomfortable.

                2 votes
    2. Flashynuff
      Link Parent
      This is awful. I use Firefox for almost all of my development and have gotten my entire team to use it as well (we still test in chrome). The fact that the devtools are able to compete with...

      This is awful. I use Firefox for almost all of my development and have gotten my entire team to use it as well (we still test in chrome). The fact that the devtools are able to compete with Chrome's are a huge reason for that. If I wasn't able to develop in Firefox I can practically guarantee the site I work on would get no attention whatsoever in any browser except Chrome.

      11 votes
    3. [4]
      creesch
      Link Parent
      Frankly speaking their focus wasn't really on developers either or rather were never really finished. Trying to work with them on several issues we ran across regarding toolbox development has...

      Frankly speaking their focus wasn't really on developers either or rather were never really finished. Trying to work with them on several issues we ran across regarding toolbox development has been an exercise in increasing frustration. Granted, this is a very specific area of development but I feel it still applies here.

      Some of the things we encountered were simply missing API calls in the webextension framework compared to chrome resulting in us not being able to offer toolbox for users in incognito mode. Similarly a lot of the user focused anti tracking features would often be implemented in such a way that they forgot to account for extensions blocking things without a good way to allow the user to know or fix it.

      The development of the new mobile firefox (fenix) was equally frustrating and a clear sign that this process has been in the works for a while. They recently started rolling it out for all users and while it does have extension support only a handful popular extensions can be installed and installing any other extension is not possible. Which makes sort of sense from a general user perspective as you want a stable browser with stable popular extensions, but even having a discussion about at least testing my own extension was met with a non answer here and an extended non answer here. Neither of those answers really even applied to my initial question, it was only through further digging myself that I finally found out that it was in fact possible to test extensions.

      Now months later they still aren't even engaging with devs about this issue.

      6 votes
      1. [3]
        dblohm7
        Link Parent
        This is... complicated to say the least, but I'll try to respond as best as I can. WebExtensions is a separate team from devtools, but I understand your frustrations there. They have been under...
        • Exemplary

        This is... complicated to say the least, but I'll try to respond as best as I can.

        Some of the things we encountered were simply missing API calls in the webextension framework compared to chrome resulting in us not being able to offer toolbox for users in incognito mode. Similarly a lot of the user focused anti tracking features would often be implemented in such a way that they forgot to account for extensions blocking things without a good way to allow the user to know or fix it.

        WebExtensions is a separate team from devtools, but I understand your frustrations there. They have been under resourced for a long time.

        Neither of those answers really even applied to my initial question, it was only through further digging myself that I finally found out that it was in fact possible to test extensions.

        Now months later they still aren't even engaging with devs about this issue.

        I'll make a couple of suggestions, for whatever they're worth:

        • The new Firefox for Android ("Fenix") is comprised of multiple layers. The Fenix team is responsible for the final product, but the Fenix codebase itself relies on other layers. At the core of Fenix lies GeckoView, our embedding framework for the Gecko rendering engine. GeckoView is also responsible for providing the guts of Fenix's extension support; I would suggest that if you have questions or concerns about mobile extension support, engaging with the GeckoView team might be more fruitful than engaging with the Fenix team.

        • As you have seen, Mozilla frowns upon conducting discussions in issue/bug trackers. I would suggest joining the GeckoView team on our matrix channel to have a live, synchronous conversation with us about your concerns.

        They recently started rolling it out for all users and while it does have extension support only a handful popular extensions can be installed and installing any other extension is not possible.

        Just to be clear on why this is happening the way it is: Extension support in GeckoView is being added incrementally, more or less using a top-down approach. Getting uBlock Origin up and running was our topmost priority, so we initially focused on implementing the API surface specifically so that uBO could run. Then we started moving our way down the list of top recommended extensions, adding their required APIs as we went.

        So (and I think you understand this, but many others do not) it's not that we don't want people installing non-recommended add-ons, but rather the issue is that the ones on the supported list are the ones that, at this time, we can guarantee have sufficient API support.

        One concern (at this time at least, during Fenix's infancy) about opening it up so that anybody can install anything they want, is that we don't want a deluge of bug reports about malfunctioning extensions calling APIs that we are well aware still need work.

        Also practically speaking, I think we (on the GeckoView team, at least) do understand that there are developers out there who would like to try their extensions on pre-release Fenix.

        Anyway, I'm sorry that your experience wasn't great. Hopefully you'll be interested in coming to chat with us on Matrix in the future.

        12 votes
        1. [2]
          creesch
          Link Parent
          Thank you for your response! Frankly speaking your reply is exactly the sort of reply I was looking for, but all I got was unhelpful product owner lingo responses or suggestions to talk on the...

          Thank you for your response! Frankly speaking your reply is exactly the sort of reply I was looking for, but all I got was unhelpful product owner lingo responses or suggestions to talk on the forums where the discussion would be the same.

          I'll try to respond to some of the things you mentioned without repeating too much of the things I already did type out on github.

          The Fenix team is responsible for the final product, but the Fenix codebase itself relies on other layers. At the core of Fenix lies GeckoView, our embedding framework for the Gecko rendering engine. GeckoView is also responsible for providing the guts of Fenix's extension support;

          I am aware that extension support itself depends on a component that is not developed by the fenix team. However giving access to installing extensions itself is up to the fenix team hence why I was directing my attempts there.
          Bluntly speaking, as I am effectively an end user here I am not as much interested in the underlying infrastructure itself but more in how it is surfaced in the product that uses it. Also as an outsider it was not easy to even find out where to post this question even being aware that fenix uses components made by other teams. So from my perspective the correct place to ask about extension support would be the github page for the product where I'd want to use them

          I would suggest that if you have questions or concerns about mobile extension support, engaging with the GeckoView team might be more fruitful than engaging with the Fenix team.

          I will keep that in mind anyway :)

          As you have seen, Mozilla frowns upon conducting discussions in issue/bug trackers.

          This is true, but at the same time there doesn't seem to be a good other platform to discuss many of these things. There are community forums that are sometimes mentioned but frankly speaking it seems that mostly community managers or product owners who are often less than helpful about questions like I had. This is the first time someone mentions matrix to me as a possible place to engage more.

          One concern (at this time at least, during Fenix's infancy) about opening it up so that anybody can install anything they want, is that we don't want a deluge of bug reports about malfunctioning extensions calling APIs that we are well aware still need work.

          I truly do understand this concern. At the same time Mozilla is effectively cutting of everyone who is using or developing any extension that for all intends and purposes "isn't popular enough" without a way to get around that except for blocking the update for which you need to be aware.

          What really boggles my mind is that it even isn't possible to do by enabling a flag, clicking a bunch of warnings about it not being supported, etc.

          I have tested my extension through web-ext, all the calls it needs to work appear to be working but I still need to disappoint the users that want to use it. Granted, it is very very small userbase for a niche use case but at the same time it used to be possible and now suddenly it isn't. I already have seen a lot of github issues on the repositories of various extensions where the extension dev is initially blamed for not supporting fenix.

          So effectively what has happend is that the concern Mozilla has now is effectively offloaded to extension developers. Which I don't think is entirely fair and is likely to drive away developers from fenix in the future.

          Not to mention that without digging deep it is at the moment very difficult to find out how to develop an extension for fenix and 100% unclear on how to get it published.

          Also practically speaking, I think we (on the GeckoView team, at least) do understand that there are developers out there who would like to try their extensions on pre-release Fenix.

          Anyway, I'm sorry that your experience wasn't great. Hopefully you'll be interested in coming to chat with us on Matrix in the future.

          I really appreciate you responding here and sorry if the above sounds too much like a rant as it isn't intended as such (though it does come from a frustrating experience).

          I might drop by in matrix at some point.

          3 votes
          1. dblohm7
            Link Parent
            Thanks for the thoughtful reply! If you do want to engage with the Fenix front-end team, they are available on Matrix as well.

            Thanks for the thoughtful reply!

            I am aware that extension support itself depends on a component that is not developed by the fenix team. However giving access to installing extensions itself is up to the fenix team hence why I was directing my attempts there.

            I might drop by in matrix at some point.

            If you do want to engage with the Fenix front-end team, they are available on Matrix as well.

            1 vote
  3. [7]
    soks_n_sandals
    Link
    Two-hundred and fifty people laid off seems like quite a few. Perhaps I don't stay current enough with Mozilla, or I missed something in the article, but what exactly does Mozilla feel its...

    Two-hundred and fifty people laid off seems like quite a few.

    Perhaps I don't stay current enough with Mozilla, or I missed something in the article, but what exactly does Mozilla feel its shortcomings were prior to this announcement? I get economics, since being a not-for-profit isn't exactly lucrative, but haven't they been re-focusing on product, mindset, technology, and community for a few years now?

    Further, I'll be keen to see how they alter their business model, since I'm not sure I'd call non- and not-for-profits businesses at all.

    7 votes
    1. [4]
      dblohm7
      Link Parent
      Indeed, considering we were ~1100 employees, you do the math. The web has become a ridiculously complex platform. Developing and maintaining a production-grade web rendering engine requires a...

      Two-hundred and fifty people laid off seems like quite a few.

      Indeed, considering we were ~1100 employees, you do the math.

      Perhaps I don't stay current enough with Mozilla, or I missed something in the article, but what exactly does Mozilla feel its shortcomings were prior to this announcement?

      The web has become a ridiculously complex platform. Developing and maintaining a production-grade web rendering engine requires a considerable amount of resources. Mozilla's engine is the last one standing that isn't backed by a corporation with a roughly trillion-dollar market cap.

      The bulk of Mozilla Corporation's revenue comes from a search deal with Google. Sadly, due to both declining users and changes in search trends due to the coronavirus, revenue is way down.

      Further, I'll be keen to see how they alter their business model, since I'm not sure I'd call non- and not-for-profits businesses at all.

      Mozilla has a rather complicated legal structure. While you should think of there being only one Mozilla, it is comprised of multiple legal entities to ensure the IRS is kept happy. The Mozilla Corporation is "for-profit" in the legal sense, but "non-profit" in the sense that it generally reinvests all its profits back into its operations, and is 100% owned by the non-profit Mozilla Foundation.

      The company has been trying for several years now to wean itself off of search revenue, but developing new sources of revenue that are also true to our principles has been challenging. Our recently announced Mozilla VPN service is one such avenue being developed. Pocket Premium is another.

      Personal opinion here (I am just a mere developer), but I think what we're going to see here is a more focused effort to drive up Firefox usage, as well as more experimentation with potential ideas for new products that align with Mozilla's mission.

      27 votes
      1. [2]
        skybrian
        Link Parent
        I suspect that switching to the Chromium render engine would be politically impossible, and yet, a trusted organization devoted to maintaining a browser fork that has anything dubious for privacy...

        I suspect that switching to the Chromium render engine would be politically impossible, and yet, a trusted organization devoted to maintaining a browser fork that has anything dubious for privacy ripped out seems more sustainable than one devoted to doing a fully independent browser. (Of course, like many other projects, Firefox does depend on other open source libraries, but there is a perception of doing most stuff itself.)

        6 votes
        1. dblohm7
          (edited )
          Link Parent
          It’s more than just a political issue. Monoculture is a terrible thing from a technological perspective. EDIT: Furthermore, having influence in standards bodies is directly correlated with having...

          It’s more than just a political issue. Monoculture is a terrible thing from a technological perspective.

          EDIT:
          Furthermore, having influence in standards bodies is directly correlated with having an engine to implement. I'm hearing anecdotes that nobody cares what Microsoft thinks anymore about the evolution of web standards since they jumped on board SS Chromium.

          13 votes
    2. Adys
      Link Parent
      Yeah this announcement tells me very little about actual focus and changes, and I'm usually quite good at deciphering PR and corporish. All it seems to be is some febreze around a 250-layoff fart.

      Yeah this announcement tells me very little about actual focus and changes, and I'm usually quite good at deciphering PR and corporish. All it seems to be is some febreze around a 250-layoff fart.

      11 votes
    3. AugustusFerdinand
      Link Parent
      A quick search for their last "State of Mozilla Report" says they have just over 1,000 employees, so it's a 25% cut.

      Two-hundred and fifty people laid off seems like quite a few.

      A quick search for their last "State of Mozilla Report" says they have just over 1,000 employees, so it's a 25% cut.

      5 votes
  4. [3]
    Comment deleted by author
    Link
    1. dblohm7
      Link Parent
      Not 100% gone, but definitely significantly impacted.

      Not 100% gone, but definitely significantly impacted.

      9 votes
    2. Deimos
      Link Parent
      MDN tweeted a short statement a few hours ago:

      MDN tweeted a short statement a few hours ago:

      MDN as a website isn't going anywhere right now. The team is smaller, but the site exists and isn't going away. We will be working with partners and community members to find the right ways to move it forward given our new structure at Mozilla.

      9 votes
  5. [4]
    teaearlgraycold
    Link
    I would have loved to work there, but I’m sure this comes with reduced hiring.

    I would have loved to work there, but I’m sure this comes with reduced hiring.

    5 votes
    1. [3]
      dblohm7
      Link Parent
      We still are hiring for specific roles (assuming they aren't being filled by transfers). Please do check our careers website. Feel free to PM me if you have questions.

      We still are hiring for specific roles (assuming they aren't being filled by transfers). Please do check our careers website. Feel free to PM me if you have questions.

      7 votes
      1. teaearlgraycold
        Link Parent
        Looks like, globally, you're only hiring one UI designer. I'll check back in periodically, though.

        Looks like, globally, you're only hiring one UI designer. I'll check back in periodically, though.

        6 votes
      2. Shahriar
        Link Parent
        Had no idea there was a Vancouver office!

        Had no idea there was a Vancouver office!

        2 votes