41 votes

Naomi Klein on following her ‘doppelganger’ down the conspiracy rabbit hole – and why millions of people have entered an alternative political reality

15 comments

  1. [8]
    Comment deleted by author
    Link
    1. [7]
      ICN
      Link Parent
      Part of the problem here is how bad the mainstream news organizations can be. The New York Times' coverage of trans issues has been hot garbage, and yet still better than anything on the right....

      I don't mean to sound like I'm dehumanizing anybody, but I mean the political discourse of extremist positions on social media can be so disconnected from the political discourse on mainstream news outlets that it's almost like the two groups are talking about entirely different things, even though they're both talking about US politics.

      Part of the problem here is how bad the mainstream news organizations can be. The New York Times' coverage of trans issues has been hot garbage, and yet still better than anything on the right. Things like that lower trust in news organizations, and rightfully so.

      But my theory is that smartphones are the main culprits for the insane state of politics today.

      My opinion is similar, but a bit more focused that it's the tech companies, rather than smartphones specifically that are a major factor for how bad things have gotten. Almost all their money comes from ad revenue, so they've chosen to optimize for engagement on their platforms to show more ads. And some of the most engaging things are conspiracy theories, outrage, and doom-scrolling. So we've got these massive multi-billion dollar social media companies purposely amplifying some of the most toxic parts of the internet, to the detriment of everybody.

      12 votes
      1. [7]
        Comment deleted by author
        Link Parent
        1. [5]
          ICN
          Link Parent
          I'd recommend listening to this podcast interviewing two of the hundreds of NYT contributors behind this open letter decrying the paper's coverage of trans issues, this podcast interviewing a...

          You might be disappointed to hear that I'm a paying subscriber to NYT, then :S. I'm actually unfamiliar with NYT's poor coverage of trans issues. Would you mind please giving a summary or providing a link to a good summary? Just to pre-defend NYT a little bit, I will say that it always appeared to me as if they're trying to be correct in terms of their pro-LGBT support. I do have to admit that I don't follow LGBT issues too closely, so I could be getting fooled by NYT razzle dazzle. But, another thing is you also have to remember that NYT is an institution, so it will inevitably lag behind some more agile sources in their reporting of LGBT issues. Of course, that would be a moot point if the poor reporting is something they've known about for a while and have continuously neglected.

          I'd recommend listening to this podcast interviewing two of the hundreds of NYT contributors behind this open letter decrying the paper's coverage of trans issues, this podcast interviewing a trans activist about the paper's issues, or both. They'll cover the topic far better than I can, especially since some of the issues need a bird's eye view to really become apparent.

          To summarize some of their points, the trans "controversies" mostly fueled by right wing hate groups on spurious grounds get front page coverage, legitimizing them, while all the blatantly anti-trans laws being passed by legislatures might get a passing mention somewhere in the paper. There's been a big fuss made about puberty blockers, which can have permanent long term effects on bone density that'll show up in someone's 50s rather than the 60s like normal. You know what else is permanent and an immediate concern? Puberty. Anecdotally, I've heard that trans people are disproportionately fond of the body horror genre, because it's one of the vanishingly few places in media where they see their experiences reflected. Going through the wrong puberty is traumatizing. But the NYT tends to gloss over that.

          Also glossed over is that all treatment for trans people is also used on and usually developed for cis people. Puberty blockers for trans kids? Perish the thought. Puberty blockers for the cis girl who started menstruating at 8? Standard practice, not worth making a fuss over. The NYT will be sure to mention that some people regret gender-affirming surgeries. They don't properly contextualize it though: ~1% regret them, and IIRC that's counting the people who regret it because of how cruel society can be to trans people. The regret rate for surgery in general is ~14%. Gender affirming surgery regret rate is literally an order of magnitude below the standard. You'd be hard pressed to find any medical procedure with numbers that good.

          The NYT does have the inertia of a large institution, but from the sounds of the people with experience in this field, they're pushing back more than most similar institutions. A lot of the workers want better coverage. Their readers want better coverage. The management seemingly does not. And I didn't even really touch on their bias in sources, where random people or members of anti-trans groups are treated as just as legitimate as actual trans people with lived experience in the matter.

          My little theory about smartphones being the cause of all the political ills of the current times is actually a very lazy theory. I don't recommend anyone subscribe to it. There's definitely way more to it than just smartphones. That little theory of mine is just like an emergency eject button I have for when I start getting too stressed out about politics. I just shake my fists and go "fecking smartphones!" and then shelve political thoughts for the rest of the day.

          I feel like I should clarify my position a bit here; I'm not solely blaming the environment the social media companies have created for all society's ills, I just think they've played a significant role in how bad online discourse has gotten, and that since they control so much of the online space and so much of peoples' time is spent there, this has had far-reaching negative effects. It's not the factor, but it is a factor.

          7 votes
          1. [2]
            MangoTiger
            Link Parent
            You both might be interested in this article which breaks down a recent example of their poor coverage of trans issues.

            You both might be interested in this article which breaks down a recent example of their poor coverage of trans issues.

            4 votes
            1. ICN
              Link Parent
              Thank you for bringing that up; it's a lot easier to refer back to a text document than a podcast

              Thank you for bringing that up; it's a lot easier to refer back to a text document than a podcast

              1 vote
          2. [2]
            Comment deleted by author
            Link Parent
            1. ICN
              Link Parent
              I don't know if the Washington Post is better, as I don't really follow their reporting. It's not unlikely they're better, as I don't follow the NYT either but still caught wind of their issues,...

              I don't know if the Washington Post is better, as I don't really follow their reporting. It's not unlikely they're better, as I don't follow the NYT either but still caught wind of their issues, but that might just be because the NYT is bigger and more prestigious.

              As a general rule of thumb to try to tell what's good coverage and what isn't, trans people know themselves better than anyone else does, so anything that doesn't have their voices front and center is dubious. Doctors can be good, but they're not immune to bigoted opinions; last I heard they still hadn't quite yet stamped out the racist myth that black people feel less pain among practitioners in the USA, so take even their word with a grain of salt.

              2 votes
          3. UP8
            (edited )
            Link Parent
            My understanding is that now it is mainly on the web, everyone at the New York Times can see the engagement numbers for what they write. For the subjects @ICN is concerned about I think NYT is...

            My understanding is that now it is mainly on the web, everyone at the New York Times can see the engagement numbers for what they write. For the subjects @ICN is concerned about I think NYT is writing what they write for the clicks but that's true about much of the rest of what they write.

            It's an unfortunate truth that there is very high engagement on the editorial page, people would rather hear David Brooks or Charlie Blow talking out their ass (with something that confirms what they already believe) than read something that takes a number of reporters a long time to research, write up, possibly get in harm's way, etc.

        2. Promonk
          Link Parent
          I think both aspects, engagement-driven profit strategies and ease of access due to smartphones, are at play. As you mentioned earlier, there was a time when engagement-driven Internet outlets...

          I think both aspects, engagement-driven profit strategies and ease of access due to smartphones, are at play. As you mentioned earlier, there was a time when engagement-driven Internet outlets existed but weren't nearly as influential on discourse. While I don't think smartphones are the ultimate cause of this phenomenon, they've definitely contributed greatly to its virulence.

          Another thing to be considered is that engagement as a metric of profitability isn't exactly new. It's been the paradigm ever since the first successful experiments in Internet monetization. That means that at this point there's been around 25 years of intense study on the subject of driving engagement of users. It's probably not an exaggeration to say that billions of dollars have been spent in developing it to be something close to a science.

          That's not necessarily a bad thing in itself, but this development has happened amorally, without consideration of the wider effects such strategies might have. It's really only been the last 8-10 years or so that anyone's had much of a sense of just how profound an impact they've made.

          6 votes
  2. [2]
    Slushie
    Link
    Yikes. No, my dear. You can’t smell because of your covid. How frustrating it must be to be confused with someone espousing such hurtful misinformation. Not only that, but reaching new heights of...

    And she had noticed something even more bizarre: “People [who are vaccinated] have no scent any more. You can’t smell them. I’m not saying like, they don’t smell bad or they don’t smell – like I’m not talking about deodorant. I’m saying they don’t smell like there’s a human being in the room, and they don’t feel like there’s a human being in the room.”

    Yikes. No, my dear. You can’t smell because of your covid.

    How frustrating it must be to be confused with someone espousing such hurtful misinformation. Not only that, but reaching new heights of fame and clout because of it!

    24 votes
    1. Sodliddesu
      Link Parent
      I mean, I wish I no longer smelled after being vaccinated. No, catch me after a run and no matter how many times you've been boosted you'll smell me a meter away.

      I mean, I wish I no longer smelled after being vaccinated. No, catch me after a run and no matter how many times you've been boosted you'll smell me a meter away.

      2 votes
  3. [2]
    NaraVara
    Link

    I could offer a kind of equation for leftists and liberals crossing over to the neofascist and authoritarian right that goes something like: narcissism (grandiosity) + social media addiction + midlife crisis ÷ public shaming = rightwing meltdown. And there would be some truth to that bit of math.

    21 votes
    1. Pretzilla
      Link Parent
      Add to the recipe, a dash of elevated fear response catalyst. It's a reasonably well accepted trait among conservatives. Faux News uses it like a ladle to stir their witches brew.

      Add to the recipe, a dash of elevated fear response catalyst. It's a reasonably well accepted trait among conservatives.

      Faux News uses it like a ladle to stir their witches brew.

      11 votes
  4. [2]
    cyberdwarf
    Link
    Between influencers making bank pushing conspiracies and nation states using conspiracies to poison the content wells of countries without government controlled media I feel like we have a long...

    I don't know, it's all frustrating. I do believe that people are collectively smart enough to move on past this difficult period and put all this conspiracy theory crap behind us. That's why I've disengaged with it all. I'm just waiting for the critical mass to realize that they've been duped by a bunch of nacho cheesier stained neckbeards, and for them to get past that sticking period I explained before where they have to explain it away to erase it from their identites and all that. I have faith that will eventually happen.

    Between influencers making bank pushing conspiracies and nation states using conspiracies to poison the content wells of countries without government controlled media I feel like we have a long row to hoe here.

    That said, this paragraph did make me consider how we might get started. Conspiracies are fun in fiction, right? And there's a lot of fiction out there with a very pro-(fictional)-conspiracy bent; In The X-Files the truth was always out there, but it was similarly obscured in the Apple TV+ series Silo and hundreds of other dramas on the timeline in between. Can taking the wind out of fictional conspiracies be made just as entertaining as discovering that they are all true? Something for the screenwriters to ponder while they strike, I suppose.

    9 votes
    1. NaraVara
      Link Parent
      There’s probably a good premise for a sci fi novel where there’s a very obvious conspiracy in play to use unhinged conspiracy theories as ways to sap the energy out of revolutionary movements by...

      There’s probably a good premise for a sci fi novel where there’s a very obvious conspiracy in play to use unhinged conspiracy theories as ways to sap the energy out of revolutionary movements by making them spend all their energy in rear guard actions arguing with nonsense.

      6 votes
  5. [2]
    ThumbSprain
    Link
    Am I going insane or did I read this several months ago? Is this a reprint by the guardian from NYT or something? Maybe from her blog. Either that or I'm an ex Reddit time traveler.

    Am I going insane or did I read this several months ago? Is this a reprint by the guardian from NYT or something? Maybe from her blog. Either that or I'm an ex Reddit time traveler.

    1. NaraVara
      (edited )
      Link Parent
      I think she published a shorter version of it as a teaser blog entry a month or two ago.

      I think she published a shorter version of it as a teaser blog entry a month or two ago.